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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314
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 Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Why foil....fin vs. foil |
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| NOVAAN wrote: | | First of all I am a windsurfer and have been since 1981 ... |
Hei! that is the year when I started, on a 50 pounds polypropylene board, little by little leaving sail racing and sailing behind, and finally going only windsurfing when I moved to San Francisco in 1986.
I am 60 and 2019 was my first year foiling, I am still a rank beginner, but the advantage in anything below 12-15 knots seems more than obvious. And foiling is opening up not only light air sailing but also cruising long distance. A friend of mine just did the loop Treasure Island - San Francisco - west of Alcatraz and back to Treasure ... on a 4.8. People have done Coyote-Bay Bridge and back.
Something simply not imaginable just a couple of years ago unless (maybe) if you were on a Formula.  |
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akrausz
Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 158
Location: FL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why foil....fin vs. foil |
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| dvCali wrote: | | NOVAAN wrote: | | First of all I am a windsurfer and have been since 1981 ... |
And foiling is opening up not only light air sailing but also cruising long distance. A friend of mine just did the loop Treasure Island - San Francisco - west of Alcatraz and back to Treasure ... on a 4.8. People have done Coyote-Bay Bridge and back.
Something simply not imaginable just a couple of years ago unless (maybe) if you were on a Formula. |
Why couldn't that be done with a longboard? |
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brand_adam
Joined: 01 Dec 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Why foil....fin vs. foil |
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| akrausz wrote: | | dvCali wrote: | | NOVAAN wrote: | | First of all I am a windsurfer and have been since 1981 ... |
And foiling is opening up not only light air sailing but also cruising long distance. A friend of mine just did the loop Treasure Island - San Francisco - west of Alcatraz and back to Treasure ... on a 4.8. People have done Coyote-Bay Bridge and back.
Something simply not imaginable just a couple of years ago unless (maybe) if you were on a Formula. |
Why couldn't that be done with a longboard? |
I suspect it could be done, but it sure wouldn't be as fast or fun. I would have a hard time hitting the upwind angles I get on my foil, with a longboard. I used to SUP on calm days to go exploring at my local spot, now I can do it when it's windy with the foil. Being able to quickly get upwind or downwind has completely changed how I sail, I now get bored just going back and forth in front of my launch spot. |
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5329
Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hope you long distance cruisers don't break anything or hit any big fish on your journeys.
Here at Berkeley, we seem to hit stuff under the surface about each day we foil over an hour. |
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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Why foil....fin vs. foil |
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| akrausz wrote: | | dvCali wrote: | | NOVAAN wrote: | | First of all I am a windsurfer and have been since 1981 ... |
And foiling is opening up not only light air sailing but also cruising long distance. A friend of mine just did the loop Treasure Island - San Francisco - west of Alcatraz and back to Treasure ... on a 4.8. People have done Coyote-Bay Bridge and back.
Something simply not imaginable just a couple of years ago unless (maybe) if you were on a Formula. |
Why couldn't that be done with a longboard? |
You could, but I suspect it might be as hard as a formula ... if not more. The Bay Area always had a (small ... and heroic) Formula fleet going around ... but I have not seen a long board in the "windy triangle" (San Francisco - Berkeley - Coyote) since ... ever (with the exception of poor Captain Nemo, who used a long board).
It can be done. SF hosted the Techno Worlds in 2011 and the fleet of very young sailors were doing Alcatraz loops starting from the Yacht Club. It looked fairly gruesome (but they were world class sailors) and one could use a Techno to cruise around ... or longer of course, I think in the same year there was a lonely Starboard Raceboard "competing" in the master class ... not a big showing.
But somehow the idea of long board does not strike the same allure. At least for me the idea of having a 210x78 that can fly over water with a 4.0-6.5 sail is more appealing ... fast forward a few years I can see a PWA level windfoil race in San Francisco doing wide triangles American Cup style. |
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5329
Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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In 1989, 57 of 64 World Cup Men and 7 World Cup Women joined in to the Oneill Classic making 111 entries.
On raceboards and mostly 6.2 sails. We sailed back up to Crissy after the 18 mile race. |
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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| dllee wrote: | In 1989, 57 of 64 World Cup Men and 7 World Cup Women joined in to the Oneill Classic making 111 entries.
On raceboards and mostly 6.2 sails. We sailed back up to Crissy after the 18 mile race. |
I remember sailing a "mother of all beasts" Division II windsurf on Lago Maggiore in Italy, probably 1983 [I even "raced" in an open class format against dinghies with it [Did not go too well. Back than I was sail racing, just landed a skipper post on open class catamarans (little beasts, around 9 meters long, unbeatable for long distance on the northern lakes), and the D2 felt so alien and unstable (rounded bottom! a treat!)]
In the late 80s long boards dwindled if not completely disappeared: fun boards came about! And there was a reason for that name.
But not to worry Lee. You can sell your foil and get a 2020 Exocet race or a Starboard Phantom Race. They are little kitties. 3.8 meters long, 50cm fin, 80 cm daggerboard (oh yeah! the daggerboard), 330-380 liters, around 32-35 pounds, slower than formula, faster than Windsurf LT (although that's another option ... it would be better than the Wind Sup I used for a couple of seasons in winter).
And long board is probably easier to handle than a foil ... if the wind is below 8-10 knots!!!! |
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gregnw44
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 783
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Why foil....fin vs. foil |
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| NOVAAN wrote: | First of all I am a windsurfer and have been since 1981..Three years ago sitting at my local spot, waiting, hoping for some wind to sail, John came out and put his new foil thingy in the water. There wasn't even enough wind to think about rigging a 7.5. Seven of us watching, thinking there was no way he could go. Wrong. A few pumps and he was up and flying. His second day on a foil and he was on a 5.3 sail. To the man we seven said no way this isn't for me it will never work here at this gusty little lake. Now we seven, plus several more, all foil.
At our spot, summer is normally filled with lots of 6.0 to 4.7 days on a WS board. I got my foil for spring and fall when there is not enough wind to WS.
That and I got tired of watch John having fun while I sat and waited for wind.
Now 2 years into it I find myself looking forward to the foil days and warm 15ish mph winds.
Here is why for me. I now carry 3 sails. 5.8 4.7 4.2. A foil board and a 96 liter windsurf board. If it looks like a lite wind day I rig a 4.7 and go foiling. If it does get windy I just grab the windsurf board and plug in the 4.7. Bigger guys are doing the same on 5.3 or 6.1 sails. My 5.8 doesn't seem to get much use. At 69 years old and a life time of action sports, foiling is much easier on my old bones and I can stay on the water much longer than when I windsurf. The use of a smaller sail and no chop bouncing my board really helps. Getting up on the foil is much easier than getting going on a windsurf board. The biggest advantage of the foil is how easy it is to fly through big lulls. Where a windsurfer would stall, the foil keeps flying. Now I fly all the way across my lake and turn near each shore. On my WS board I would need to keep farther out to make turns in the wind line. This cuts off sometime, half of the lake making a small sailing area even smaller. On foil I can head up wind at extreme angles compared to my WS board. I also can head way down wind on foil with out worries of getting back up. Again extending the sailing area. If your sailing a large body of water, some of this doesn't apply. The last best thing for me is our evening blow. After the wind backs off and the WS guys are packing up for the day, I head back out for a golden hour on foil. If your getting to your spot late after work, hoping for an hour before it glasses off a foil might be a better option. Same if you only have a short time to play in the morning before the wind turns on. At my lake WS season starts in April and ends the last of Sept. Foil season starts in March and goes through November.........Just my positive thoughts on this newish sport |
Very well said NOVAAN.
Where's your lake... and about how big is it?
Thanks 
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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84 |
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gregnw44
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 783
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| d0uglass wrote: | Agree. Foil has hugely enhanced our sport.
It has achieved the previously unimaginable feat of putting formula windsurfing planing power and upwind/downwind performance into easy-handling, wavesailing-sized gear... Allowing people in shitty venues to get good time on the water with the same small gear the wind snobs in Maui, the Gorge, San Francisco, Corpus Christi, and the OBX were using. |
Also very true, and well said.
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I bought my foil in early 2017 and also agree with these posts (although I haven't been able to practice it very much, so am still quite a newbie).
A couple related thoughts -
If you're in an area with a lot of up and down wind from 10 mph to 25... I think all these well said things, are VERY true!!
But if you're "on the fence" and haven't quite decided to make the investment yet... there's one other thing to consider (and I'm surprised "this" isn't talked about more).
Carrying a hydrofoil around in your car (van, whatever)... and storing it at home... and dealing with attaching and detaching it at the beach... and carrying it "in/out" the water... and floating it "to/from" deep enough water... ALL are things to realize, that are much more cumbersome and a hassle on top of dealing with regular windsurf gear.
Yes - all the "said advantages" are true... just realize there is this added "hassle and time" to realize that advantage.
And yes, some will say, "the added time and hassle dealing with the foil is not more (just different) than dealing with 11 or 12m sail rigs... cause now I get the same performance in those very light winds with an 8m sail". And I agree.
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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84 |
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gregnw44
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 783
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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"Fin vs Foil" all great comments here and I agree... and this all really applies to most of you with plenty of breezy days over 10 mph stuff.
But here in Seattle, we typically have less than that... a good sailing day here is breeze from 5-15 mph (not knots
With lots of 5-10, there is very little foiling except for the young, fit, lightweight experts, with big wings and 9m foil sails.
So for the rest of us - the question is "high performance longboard" or "windfoil" in our typical light breezes.
I have quite a list of "pros and cons" on this subject, haha!
Anyway it's just something else to think about for those considering foiling, depending on your typical wind conditions.
For me, it's way easier, less effort, and quicker - to take my mid 90's raceboard and rig up a 10m race sail... and get on the water sailing. Compared to assembling my foilboard and rigging a 7.5m sail. The mid 90's 250L raceboard is lighter and much easier to carry in/out the water, than my 150L foilboard with foil attached. And the weight and hassle of my 10m vs 7.5m is negligible.
HOWEVER although "that" is all true... if I do have enough 10+ wind to get flying a fair amount... I do have more fun foiling, LOL
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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84 |
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