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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17774
Location: Berkeley, California
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 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| This is hysterical! Imagine Isobars offending fellow windsurfers by spouting off about something he's not expert in! A first? Mo, a cartoon, please! |
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jweaver
Joined: 10 May 1997
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm tempted to say something to Iso about how global warming figures into this discussion, but....... |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20936
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| trburl wrote: | | If you're on a swell from 3 miles out its yours.... Good Lord I wish it was that easy. Its not. If you think that logic applies well, try it at Kanaha or Ho'okipa. A pro or seasoned vet will jibe onto the wave you are on, sure as sh*t, and rip it to shreds. Leaving you there wondering why your outside claim on the wave was DENIED. |
I guess there are several ways to claim a prize piece of terrain. My best bud was angry at me all day once because I apparently "denied" him the prize he had "claimed" by looking at it from 200 yards away ... as though I knew he was eyeballing it and I hadn't gotten to it first.
Mike |
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boardsportsrule4
Joined: 05 Jul 1999
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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thanks iwindsurf forums for your great forums, and reliable website!
Last edited by boardsportsrule4 on Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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boardsportsrule4
Joined: 05 Jul 1999
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
Now can you guys focus on ROW? Can any of you explain why an aerial cutback off the lip of the non-breaking section of an ocean wave deserves ROW but an aerial cutback off the lip of a non-breaking Columbia River (or Great Lakes, or Rio Grande) wave does not? It would help a lot of people understand why you guys demand such special privilege (and help me understand why fresh-water sailors do not deserve similar ROW).
Mike |
i would say that on a wave, there is only a finite number of places you can catch that wave, and in addion, even lesser number of places you can catch the wave and get a decent enough section to do an arieal, where as in the gorge, there are many more places one could be doing "ariel cut backs" at a given launch spot. i know there are places where the swell is generally better than others, but there are MANY places at each "advanced" gorge sailing launch site that you could get these "arial cut backs"
given that there are more "decent swells that you can do arial cutbacks on" in the gorge, at a given "advanced sailors launch spot", than at a place such as wadell, one could conclude that the ROW rules would be MUCH more important in wadell than in the gorge.
ps. if you're good enough to do an arial cut back on a gorge swell, people know who you are and give you the space you need to do what you need to do. have fun at roosevelt. |
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insh8bl
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 181
Location: San Francisco, CA & Coconut Cove, Maui HI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Isobars wrote” there's no point in my responding to posts from people who refuse to read the post(s) they think they're refuting and refuse to consult an oceanography website, as I did, before guessing about terminology.”
Ok well let’s see, what oceanographic terms did I use…
Fetch: Summary
Wind fetch is defined as the unobstructed distance that wind can travel over water in a constant direction. Fetch is an important characteristic of open water because longer fetch can result in larger wind-generated waves. The larger waves, in turn, can increase shoreline erosion and sediment resuspension. Wind fetches in this model were calculated using scripts designed by David Finlayson,[1]
…this is what I said!
Swell:
The Science of Wind and Waves
• Swell Travel
• Why Waves Break
• Forecasting Waves
• About Dr. Lyons
Dr. Steve Lyons
The Weather Channel
As you know waves are formed by wind that blows on the sea surface. The faster the wind blows, the longer the wind blows and the greater the distance that winds blows over the water the higher the waves will get. Some will never reach one foot while others can attain heights over one hundred feet in extreme weather.
It turns out that most of the "waves" you see in the ocean and surf on at your beach are not locally wind generated waves; instead they are waves that have come from a wind source that is some distance away. This means that the most common "waves" you see at your beach are actually "swells" that have been generated within a distant wind area and have moved away from it to your location. These traveling swells that move without any aid by wind once they have formed can travel great distances. The question here is how far can ocean "swells" move across the ocean?
…this is what I said!
Waves:
The Science of Wind and Waves
• Swell Travel
• Why Waves Break
• Forecasting Waves
• About Dr. Lyons
Dr. Steve Lyons
The Weather Channel
I know you boaters, fishermen, jet skiers, wind surfers, kite surfers, surfers, boogie boarders and body surfers out there in the surf zone; what you are thinking sometimes when you gaze out into the sea; why do waves break and why do they break in such different forms? Well in the simplest ways I will explain the answers to these questions, the results could help you understand a few things you might have not known!
First of all why do waves break? This is fairly simple to explain. As waves move toward shore and into shallow water they begin to feel the ocean bottom. And in turn the ocean bottom causes friction; it slows the wave down from the speed the wave was moving in deep water. It turns out that the greatest wave slow down is in that part of the wave closest to the ocean bottom where bottom friction is greatest. The least slow down is at the air-water interface at the wave crest, farthest from the seafloor. The result is that the wave crest begins to move faster at its top than at the wave's base. Eventually this speed difference causes the wave to tip forward and the wave breaks.
…this is what I said!
Is there something you still don’t understand? Iso…
References
1.) NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Global Change Master Directory, Greenbelt , MD 20771 |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20936
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jweaver wrote: | | Your propensity to take something simple and complicate the crap out of it by "researching" … |
If it’s so simple, why has virtually every post here disagreed so thoroughly with professional terminology, sources, and actions of waves and swell? We don’t get to make up our own languages if we want to communicate well.
| jweaver wrote: | | If you're on the river (whatever river), you'd better suppose that normal right of way rules apply. Trying to apply wave rules in the Gorge just complicates the crap out of things. |
It would simplify them, at some locations, if more people were aware how many Gorge sailors support and try to use them. That’s what I’m trying to clarify.
| jweaver wrote: | | Why should somebody on a wave in the ocean have right of way? Go sail in front of him and find out the answer. He can't stop … |
Presuming both you and I are on a similar sized non-breaking face, neither of us can easily stop completely, especially if we’re airborne. That’s why we both look before cutting back, airborne or not.
| jweaver wrote: | | everybody pretty much knows which direction he's going to ride the wave......ie down the line … No such prediction can reliably be applied in river sailing |
You’re right, that IS a problem here, to the unobservant newcomer. The guys who play hardest in our humps quickly learn to read a new sailor to see whether he carves or cruises; once any sailor (including kiters) I’ve never seen before shows any interest in carving, I give him a LOT of room to do his thing, regardless of port or starboard. Traffic permitting, I give him room to make 2 or 3 high-g maneuvers and blow the last one, so he can have fun and I no longer have to watch him. I will almost always yield windward to any oncoming sailor on starboard or port for multiple reasons, including putting any onus to hold the line on HIM (I gave ROW up by changing course) and giving me more room to play.
| jweaver wrote: | | maybe you should test it by putting yourself in front of a guy doing a cutback on port tack and yell starboard at him. |
If I was paying any attention at all, that guy doing ANY level of cutback has scores of yards of lateral room to do anything he wants on any tack … unless, of course, he’s in the corridor with 500 of his closest friends, in which case he hasn’t room to take a deep breath.
| jweaver wrote: | | Or.....more likely in this scenario, you'd be the guy claiming some kind of befuddled river wave ROW. |
“Claiming”? No. But wise Gorge wave riders try to definitely and clearly indicate their propensity for departing from the N-S rut as often and as abruptly as they can. We’re not going to hit those who ignore the hints, but many of us worry less and less about their nerves if they keep cruising through the best swell on autopilot. We give other wave riders plenty of room and try not to interfere with the cruisers; I think it’s fair to expect some consideration in return.
| jweaver wrote: | | More likely still is the probability that anybody sailing in these relatively extreme conditions (ocean or river) has the common sense and practical skill to stay out of the way. |
True in the ocean, but not so common here. It IS just a lake, and many newbies don’t think past that any better than I first did in 1984.
| jweaver wrote: | | For those incidents like the one that started this thread before you hijacked it, it's usually just pilot error unless somebody willfully forces a right of way issue. |
Same here, but here it happens too often because of the intense mobs unaware of ANY ROW “rules”. And although I agree I diverted the venue, I’m still trying to concentrate on the ROW similarities.
| jweaver wrote: | | You're doing a pretty good job of mucking up the ROW issue, so in the spirit of your normal sop I suggest you go consult some authoritative sites and further illuminate us as to how seriously flawed it is not to apply wavesailing rules in the Gorge. |
It’s not like this is my idea, or that this is a new concept. It’s been argued many times over the decades when it’s not blowing, and lamented very often when it was blowing.
Mike \m/ |
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jimwilkins
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| This is the biggest collection of crap I have ever seen, |
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ShreddinEd
Joined: 27 Mar 1994
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Has windsurf season started in the Gorge yet? Just curious... |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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When is the next long distance ground swell expected to hit the Gorge?
Maybe our testy contributor from the Great Northwest can eagerly comment and fill us in with the core facts and rules that might apply when the ground swell ultimately hits out in the eastern Gorge.
Also, maybe he can comment on how the ground swell and "waves" gets by the various dams before getting to eastern locales. |
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